Water Your Garden

Thicc Episode

Thicc: [00:00:00] Here you are again. How did you find me? I do not want this relationship to buy me. I thought I put you behind me, but here you are beside me again. With triggers you continue to try me with hands on my throat, air you deny me. With each passing day, you horrify me. When will it end? I thought I defeated you.

I learned how to fight this fight. I clearly had no clue. You were just chilling outta sight, waiting, and waiting, and waiting. Waiting for my comfort, waiting for my sleep, waiting for me to be cozy in my peace. Same dance, new steps. Learning how to walk again, like Omar Epps in Love & Basketball. For so long you held me to a crawl.

But I've been studying Paul Wall. Now I'm learning how gangsters roll, Blueberry Purp Smalls. Learning the new steps and mixing them with the oldest. Fight is looking winnable. I'm gonna take the gold. And then you go back into hiding. Biding your time. Residing. Until you take me by surprise with all of your hate and despise.

[00:01:00] Not sure I can survive. Got me wanting to unalive. This cycle of you terrorizing me is such a predictable and exhausting spree. And all of this I can foresee, but even still, it's devastating. Welcome to my world of PTSD.

Ramshackle Glory: Dahlia never showed me nothing but kindness. She would say, "I know how sad you get". And some days I still get that way, but it gets better. It gets better. It gets better. Sweetie, it gets better, I promise you. And she'd tell me. She'd tell me. Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on, and hold on. Hold [00:02:00] on for your life.

Hecate: Hi there. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Hecate and this is Finding OK, a healing podcast for survivors of sexual assault and any and all abuse. When survivors share, we share strength. You are not alone. Today's episode has been a long time coming. I had the pleasure of speaking with ThiccSparkleButt,

And I'm so glad I can finally share our conversation with you. Thicc is a poet and a fellow streamer on Twitch. The poem we started with was one of hers, and it's titled, The Traumatic Two Step. Thicc and I first met when I was a guest on her panel for Internet Safety and Boundaries during Sexual Assault Awareness Month last year. Thicc is a member of [00:03:00] Twitch Women's Guild, Twitch Black Guild, Twitch Latin Guild, and Twitch Pride Guild.

That's all of the Unity Guilds, if you were counting. Thicc grew up in a religious cult and is a survivor of assault and abuse as well.

Growing up in high control environments establishes patterns of abuse that take years of work to deconstruct. Normalized abuse in one part of our life, teaches us to accept abuse in other parts of our life.

Thicc and I cover some of her upbringing today, and then talk about a more recent experience of abuse that falls under the expanding legal definition of "rape by deception". Some of what we talk about today might be challenging for folks because we've been taught that things like this aren't abuse or assault.

It might be uncomfortable because it might ask us to reevaluate something from our own past.

So before we get started, a big [00:04:00] reminder for today is that coercion is not consent, and that includes deception.

A shout out to Thicc for being not only generous with her story, her energy, and her time, but also for being incredibly patient as my health delayed production significantly. She's awesome,

and everyone should go follow her on Twitch, see if she's live, and go tell her in chat that Hecate says, "cawCAW"! Or you can just say hello and let her know that you enjoyed the episode. But let's get into it.

Hecate: Trigger and content warnings for this episode include the following, religious trauma, cults, suicide, abuse, PTSD, sexual assault, coercion and deception, substances, and strong language. Please check in with yourself and make sure you're [00:05:00] all right to continue. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please consider supporting my work by becoming a Patreon member. Tiers start as low as $1 a month, and membership at any level changes my life. Tier Three, Four, and Five Patrons gain early access to Finding OK episodes, as well as a supplemental Patron podcast called Finding More.

Creating this podcast takes an incredible amount of time, energy, and emotional labor; and so if you believe what I'm creating has value, and you believe in supporting survivors and compensating them for their labor,

please click the link in episode notes to learn more about membership benefits. Finding OK is funded entirely by the generosity of Patrons and listeners like you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for joining me. And I would like to start by asking, are you okay? 

Thicc: I am, I am okay. [00:06:00] I'm very much still in the process of healing, but I am very much okay.

Hecate: And I would also love to hear a compliment that you've received and that you have never forgotten. 

Thicc: I think it's always been my eyes, the shape of my eyes. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: People have constantly complimented me on the shape of them, and so when I was younger I learned how to use them. 

Hecate: Ooh.

I love it. And I would also love to know your favorite color or your favorite color combination and what you associate with it. 

Thicc: It's really hard because I love color, period. My favorite colors are whatever season it is.

So in the springtime I like lots of pastels and greens, like the neon and, and nature greens and pinks and things like that. And then [00:07:00] summer is very bright, oranges and blues and, greens and things like that. And then fall, I really love, browns and dark greens on my skin tone. So I dress like in earthy colors in the fall.

So it all depends on the season. I also change my style because I'm sometimes very goth and then sometimes I'm very Pastel Goth, and sometimes I'm really girly. So it all depends. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: It all depends. But I guess my favorite color combination has to be red and green. I like seeing the contrast, especially when I see people with red hair wear green.

Hecate: Oh my gosh, you're, yeah. It's so beautiful. 

Thicc: I love that. 

So like 

the green and the red? 

Hecate: Yes. Yes. 

Thicc: I love, love, love seeing that together. 

Hecate: It is stunning and I love that the answer to the color [00:08:00] question, like, you know, favorite color? Whatever nature is wearing. I love that. Yeah. If I had to summon you in a ritual, what five things would I need to place at each point of the pentacle on the floor?

Thicc: Weed.

Hecate: Yes. 

Thicc: um,

Probably an enchilada. 

Hecate: Mm. 

Thicc: My cell phone, some type of reality TV show, and Twitch. 

Hecate: Nice. And I would love to hear three essentials to your self-care. 

Thicc: Yoga, is first. I have Fibromyalgia, so if I don't stretch I get really tight and then the pain and then I'm down for a couple of days 'cause can't walk and things like that, so.

Yoga number one, um, weed is part of my self care. You're gonna hear that a lot. 

Hecate: Yeah. 

Thicc: Weed is definitely part of my self-care. [00:09:00] Um, and I think that just quiet time with loved ones on the couch. I think that's one of my favorite things, whether that be friends or if I'm in a relationship, if we can just sit and watch something together or just

read separate things or play video games or something, but just like body doubling, that's really self-care for me. 

Hecate: That sounds really beautiful. Usually it's, my time on the couch is with my dog. 

Thicc: Mm-hmm. 

Hecate: And I have this dream of maybe getting like a couch and putting like casters on the bottom and making like a streamer couch.

Thicc: Mm-hmm. 

Hecate: So that my dog could sit on me and I could have like, Twitch time and video game time, or like work time and have dog in lap. Um, 'cause I think she wants it too. 

Thicc: Same. I was thinking I have a cat, um, and he's [00:10:00] constantly tapping me during my streams and wanting attention and has tore up my poor chair.

And so I want to get like a, like a rising bed. So that he can sit there. And cats are very, um, mimicy. So if you're at the computer, they want to be at the computer. So they have little fake laptops for cats 

Hecate: I just saw that! 

Thicc: And I want to get one for him so that he can sit here with his computer and just be happy. 

Hecate: That would be everything.

Oh my God. He could have like his own little streamer, like camera too, and just sort of like, you know, like cat, cat laptop. Oh my God. 

Thicc: Mm-hmm. 

Hecate: I love that you said that. I literally just found out about that, like today that popped up on my algorithm where, where it was like fake laptop for cats and I was like, mm-hmm.

Oh, that's the cutest thing I've seen today. So, oh, that would be everything. And they make, like, I can't, I can't remember if it was during the panel that [00:11:00] we did together for, um, Sexual Assault Awareness Month on your channel, but somebody mentioned that they have like streamer chairs or desk chairs with like a built-in thing for cats.

Thicc: Ooh. 

Hecate: And I can't remember if it was somebody in the panel that dropped that link, or if it was someone else in the, in the, in the Women's Guild. But there's like a whole chair, like a streamer chair or, or like a desk chair with like an attached little platform for, for cats to sit with you.

Thicc: Okay. I'm going to have to look into that. 

Hecate: Yeah. And if it, if it could hold my 50 pound dog, like I would do it, but I don't think that's the solution. 

Thicc: Well, shadow is 20 pounds, so I don't, we're we're hoping 

Hecate: Oh my gosh. Wow. 

Thicc: He's a little chunk. He's a little chunk. 

Hecate: Aw. Yeah. I actually have a chunky kitty.

She's, uh, I think about like 14 pounds, so, yeah. But yeah, if it's okay, I'd love to dive in [00:12:00] and, uh, 

Thicc: Sure! 

Hecate: And so it's my understanding that you, is it that you grew up in a high control environment? Were you always a member? Like from from birth? 

Thicc: Yes. In fact, my father joined when he was 17 and my mom was six when she dedicated her life or got baptized.

So it's been generations, yeah. In our family. 

Hecate: Okay. And I'd like to just kind of talk about that and just kind of get an understanding of how that affected your boundaries growing up and moving forward. 

Thicc: So I really didn't have boundaries. Um, and, and that's just what it was. It was very much a doomsday cult.

And I was raised as, you follow these rules or you will be [00:13:00] alone. You follow these rules or we won't love you. And it wasn't love that was said, but it was, we won't talk to you. You will lose everything that you know, and then you will die in a horrible way. And that's what I had. So I grew up, I'm the eldest child, so oldest daughter syndrome too, the one that had to make sure everybody was okay.

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: Um, and on top of that, because my father was very well known in the cult, and had spent time at the world headquarters of this particular cult and knew high people, it was very important that my sibling and I be exemplary in our conduct. We were set up on a [00:14:00] pedestal and used as an example, and a lot of kids would get their permission to do things if we were allowed to do them or if we were allowed to go.

It was, "Oh, the so-and-so girls get to go, the so-and-so girls are going". 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: I was highly watched. In that particular cult if you did anything that was outside of the lines or bounds, you would be brought into a room, you would be interrogated basically about, give me all of the details of what you did.

Um, and then they would make an announcement that you were either reproved or some people would get no announcement. It all depended on what the situation, but you would get your privileges taken away. So there would be no more like, how do I put this?

They would do reenactments of how to teach the Bible to people. And you wouldn't be able to participate in that. It would be, you wouldn't be able to [00:15:00] comment, like if you there was a study, you wouldn't be able to comment. And so it was very 

Hecate: They like take your voice away. 

Thicc: Publicly and publicly punishing.

Hecate: Yeah. 

Thicc: And so when you did something really bad they would excommunicate you and that meant no one would talk to you, not even if you came, you weren't allowed to eat with them. So my sister got pregnant at 15 and we had to, I had to treat her like that because she got kicked out, but we lived in the house together.

So it was this dynamic where I kind of had to be mean to her,

but not be mean to her. 'cause she was still my sister. And it was a very confusing, confusing time and it damaged our relationship so [00:16:00] much that I don't think we ever really recovered into a loving relationship because after that time we fought all the time, like we were fighting before, like siblings do.

But after that it was bad. It was really bad. So I never even got to be me. So not only did I not have boundaries, I didn't have a chance to be who I was. I had to suppress everything that I was feeling because I had to fit this perfect mold

to make my parents happy and in order to get love.

Hecate: Yeah. It's like you didn't get to fully explore or like discover identity. You were more a symbol than anything else. 

Thicc: Right.

It's very high pressure. I would leave, and move, and try and create different [00:17:00] relationships with men that were not inside of the cult secretly so that I could get away. And I did not know that that's what I was doing. It was just an unconscious thing that I was trying to escape it and I didn't know how.

Because I didn't leave until I was 40. 42? 42. 

Hecate: You mentioned that your family is still a member of the organization. 

Do you have any contact with them or how do you navigate that? 

Thicc: So, up until probably a month ago, I hadn't had any contact with my family for about a year and a half.

And before that it had been, it was very sporadic. once I moved away, 'cause I'm was living in California and I moved across the country to Georgia. And once I moved, that's when it broke down. Um, [00:18:00] I told them that I, before I left, that I could no longer be a part of the organization because it was making me feel like I was malfunctioning.

And everything that I loved and who I was, I was constantly told that was bad. And so I had to try and fit and like all of these things that were just not me. And I just felt like my brain was malfunctioning and I couldn't do it anymore because I was ready to just end it. And they understood as long as they felt like I still believed.

And so at that time when I was getting ready to leave, they helped me leave. They got my car, you know, helped me get everything together. And then I left. And when I got here, I had a major tire blowout, and I called my mom because I was just looking for [00:19:00] comfort or like, tell me what to do. And she was like, well, that's what happens when you choose to live, not live

right. 

Hecate: Okay. 

Thicc: I don't know what you want me to do. And I was like, I was just asking for suggestions. I wasn't asking for money, but okay. 

 And as I started discovering more of who I am I would call and be like, Hey mom, I just found out I have ADHD. And she'd be like, you'll figure it out. Everything was very dismissive and so I just stopped talking to her.

I just stopped. When I left and I started digging into the fact that the organization that I grew up in was a cult and I started digging into the things that they didn't want us to find out, I called my dad and started asking questions and [00:20:00] he just, I could just hear him start repeating the things that we have been trained to say and I was like, I lost it.

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: And I just stopped talking to them, um, until I needed help. I needed help to move because I was in a very abusive situation, mentally abusive, and I wanted to get out before it turned physical. 'cause it was starting to look like it was going that way. And I called them and I said, Hey, I just need $500 for 24 hours.

I'll give it right back. I just need it today. So that I can make sure that I'm gonna be safe to move. And my father said, only if you come back, then I will help you. And I said, you know that being there makes me want to commit suicide, [00:21:00] so you're telling me die or die? And he said, because he's, they very much believe in a resurrection.

He said, um, what do you want me to say to you when you're resurrected? That was his answer when I said, so you want me to die or die? He said, so what do you want me to say to you when you're resurrected? And I was so hurt 'cause I'm a daddy's girl. 

And so I lost it. I started cussing. He hung up on me.

And I did not speak to them until about a month ago. After that I tried to call my mom and I was like, Hey, I'm in a better position. 'cause they had been paying my car note and I was like, Hey, I'm in a better position. I wanna send you money for my car.

And she didn't wanna give me any way to send her money. Not Cash App, not nothing. She was like, I [00:22:00] don't wanna give you anything. I don't want you to have my bank account information. And I was like, 

Hecate: not exactly how it works, but okay. 

Thicc: I don't. Right. I was like, I, I don't need it. I'm just trying to send you, we've been taking, I was like, yep, but I don't trust you guys because you just told me to die, so I don't know what you guys are going to do.

Hecate: Mm. 

Thicc: And she, "I don't trust you either!" And I was like, all right. You know what?

So then I stopped talking to them for a year and a half until recently. And recently my mother apologized. They both apologized to me, but my mother apologized. She said she was sorry for how she raised me and how she disciplined me because it was wrong. 

Hecate: Wow. 

Thicc: But 

Hecate: okay. 

Thicc: She still tried to get me to come back.

Hecate: Oh, okay. Alright. Yeah. 

Thicc: "It's different now. It's different now. You wouldn't recognize it." It's, and I was just like, [00:23:00] I'm happy. She said, "You don't sound happy. You sound, uh, upset". I said, "I'm upset with you guys. Outside of you guys, I'm happy, the happiest I've ever been".

Um, but we're actually at a place where we can have a conversation. And she actually is a little bit more understanding than in, I'm not talking to you. You don't exist. We don't have a relationship.

It is what it is, but they are still, and there is no changing. Ooh, they are.

Hecate: Yeah. I'm glad at least they were able to like, get there and that there's something and 

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: And to whatever degree, like you decide that it is, is good or beneficial. I wanted to ask, how did you realize you were in a cult? 

Thicc: That was an interesting story. So, I had just [00:24:00] come off of being assaulted, which we will talk about later.

And I had found one space on Twitch that was safe for me. And it was in the President Noir's stream. So I joined that Discord. The community was just in the Discord hanging out, watching The Vow. And so I watched The Vow and it's the part when they were talking about the family from Mexico, the girl 

Hecate: Mm-hmm.

Thicc: Who they locked in the room and no one would speak to her. And she had to keep writing letters to get back in. And it clicked. I was like, when I got kicked out, no one would speak to me and I had to keep writing letters to get back in. And when you get [00:25:00] baptized, they tell you that's an unbreakable vow.

And I was like, I was in a cult. I was in a cult. And so the first thing that I did was I went straight to look up everything they tell you because they tell you when you're in, don't look up anything that is said about us, because it's all written by disgruntled former people who are out to discredit us.

So that's the first thing I did. Looked everything up and the documentaries that I watched, and then I started researching court cases and I, that's when I lost it and I called my father and we got into it. You know how, when, you know, when your parent is lying? And he lied to me and it was just so hurtful because again, I'm a daddy's girl and so it [00:26:00] just crushed me.

And I was like, I don't want anything to do with anything. I'm writing a letter. I'm telling them, remove me off their roster. I don't want anything to do with any of those people. And I was very angry for a while. I was very angry. I was angry with my sister who was still in, and I tried to tell her about the things that I found.

And one of the things I just said to her, I was like, please, you know, if you're gonna stay, please watch the kids. Make sure the kids are safe. And my sister's response was, "My kids is grown. I ain't gotta worry about that". And I was thinking, but what about the rest of the kids that you're Okay, so you don't care.

Okay. And at that point, I was just like, I don't want to do, I don't want [00:27:00] anything to do with these people because they have ugly, ugly spirits. And, and my sister called to check on me, uh, last year when there was a hurricane coming, and I just went off. I was like, don't message me now, because you see that there's a hurricane.

I took a lot of my anger out on her and she was checking on me, and it didn't end well. And I apologized. I was like, you know, I realize that, you know, but I was like, I need you to understand that my experiences are valid and I need you, if we're gonna have a relationship to be able to respect my feelings and understand and hear me out, because there's things you don't know.

And I didn't get a response from her, so I was just like, 

Hecate: mm-hmm. 

Thicc: I haven't really had a relationship with my family for about 15 [00:28:00] to 20 years because I got kicked out when I was 34 of the religion. And then I came back at 38, and then I left the religion again at 42.

So I really haven't had a relationship with them since I was 34. So for me, it's just like, eh,

Hecate: You talked about, the term you used was "using men to escape", do you mean in a sense of using men to escape the cult or to escape yourself? 

Thicc: The cult 

Hecate: or, yeah? Okay. So 

Thicc: it was the cult. Yeah. 

Hecate: And were you still in the cult when you got sucked into the coercive, um, deceptive, abusive situation?

Thicc: No. 

Hecate: Or was that later? 

Thicc: No, that was, that was later.

So a lot happened when I moved to Atlanta. I moved here with a man I didn't really wanna be in a relationship with, and I [00:29:00] had tried to end things with him before it was time for me to move to Atlanta. But he had an emotional breakdown and emotionally manipulated me to stay in the relationship.

So I moved here with him and I was like, we'll, we'll figure it out. We'll try and make this work. But he was former military and he had PTSD, I believe he was a little Autistic. He also had ADHD. So we were, I am Autistic. I have ADHD and I have complex CPTSD. And mine stems from being controlled. I have always had an issue like, don't control me. Don't, don't control me. And he was very controlling. And before we got into a relationship, I said, look, I'm leaving a cult.[00:30:00] 

So there's some things that I want to explore. I want dress like a ho. I want to do things that I've never been allowed to do before. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: And I need you to understand that. I need you to give me the space to do that. He wanted a very conservative person. I was like, I'm not about to be conservative.

We moved to Atlanta. And he would tell me he didn't like my outfit, and then have an attitude that I had it on and wore it. He would become the victim if I got upset when I said, you're controlling me. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: It was, I can't even tell you something I don't like.

Because it's, I told you I didn't like it and you wore it anyway, 

Hecate: Super, super emotionally manipulative. 

Thicc: So yeah, so it was very, very controlling and manipulative and mentally abusive [00:31:00] because he did not want me to stream, so I had no support. If I talked louder than this, I was too loud. So I inevitably ended up with a community who liked ASMR, but I wasn't doing ASMR.

It was just, I just had to be quiet so I didn't get yelled at. 

Hecate: Yeah. 

Thicc: I was so depressed and so stressed out that I couldn't thrive on Twitch, but Twitch was my escape. It was my happy place. And so when all of that was going on, the day that I moved, um, we went to go get his stuff. And I got threatened by some crazy person who threatened to kill me because I was parked in their parking lot of the apartment complex that we were moving out of. I had to do a [00:32:00] police report, all of that.

It was a big thing. And then on the way back from moving my ex's stuff back to Atlanta, I hit a pothole that blew out my radiator and blew out my tire. And so my car was damaged. It, made it back to Atlanta. And then after that I couldn't drive it, it, it would overheat. So that was tons of money that I didn't have to spend.

So I was just under a lot of stress.

So the person that assaulted me played on all of that. We were doing a podcast together. I had met them in a Discord, around the time that Twitch was getting a lot of hate raids for Black people.

We didn't feel Twitch was doing anything about it. So all of the Black people stopped streaming on one day. On one specific day most of us stopped streaming. And we all [00:33:00] created a Discord and we hung out in the Discord. And when I tell you I had so much fun, oh, that was so much fun.

And I met so many amazing people, but I also met this person. So we started doing a podcast. Um, 

Hecate: Can I ask if this was before, Black Guild was created? 

Thicc: It was before any of the Guilds were created 

Hecate: Before the Guilds. Okay. Wow. 

Thicc: Right? It was before any of the Guilds were created.

Our podcast was on relationships

and all kinds of relationships, family relationships, romantic relationships, friendships, all kinds of relationships. 'cause I am fascinated by people. We were very much on the same page of being honest and open and being free because I didn't know it at the time, but I'm polyamorous. It was a dope podcast 'cause we had a doctor. It was me, former cult person,

we had a pastor, a youth pastor, and we had him, who was polyamorous and [00:34:00] married. So it was a very interesting. I love hearing different viewpoints. That's all our conversation was ever about. But we became friends. So you join the Discord and, you know, hang out in their Discord and they had a NSFW section of their Discord and they said they wanted to spice it up.

Well, I had a friend who had a really good, NSFW, um, area that was very locked down and secure and very safe. And so I told them, I said, talk to them. They may be able to help you. So they did. And prior to that, he had been like, flirting with me in the open, in chats, in other people's chats.

And it was very weird to me because I knew he was married, but I didn't know he was polyamorous. 

Hecate: Oh, okay. 

Thicc: And so I knew his wife. I liked his wife. His wife had been on our podcast before, so there was a relationship. She [00:35:00] would be in his chat. I would communicate with her. I liked her. Long story short. He tells me he's polyamorous.

He tells me, but his wife doesn't want to be involved because the last polyamorous relationship he was in, she got really hurt by the end of the friendship that she had with that person. This is what he told me. And I shouldn't have been dumb, I should have checked, but I didn't. I trusted him because we had a podcast together where we were always talking about honesty.

Hecate: Yeah. He had established trust. 

Thicc: And being open. And he had, and so, I kept telling him, I don't wanna be involved in anything that your wife is not on board with. I don't want to be in a mess because Twitch is my happy place. By this time I had broken up with the guy that I moved here to Georgia with, but 

Hecate: mm-hmm.

Thicc: We were still living together, still sleeping in the same [00:36:00] bed, still sometimes sleeping together. 

And that guy said, I don't wanna know anything about what you do, but he still expected me to have a curfew. I had a curfew at 42 years old. I had to be home by 2:00 AM at 42.

I was back in another high controlled environment. So, I would stay in Discord with this person and talk to them, every day, every night. But I made it clear like for three months I was like, I don't wanna be involved in anything that your wife is not on board with.

So he brought his wife to Georgia for a convention and we met and she was cool. Her and I had a good time. We talked, she would hang out in the daytime and then at nighttime she would go to the hotel room and he would hang out me. So I'm thinking, okay, everything's cool. And he tells me she knows and everything is cool.[00:37:00] 

So I'm like, okay. After they leave, we start a relationship and immediately after we start the relationship, all my attention is gone. He's not talking to me much. What's happening? What's going on? 

Hecate: So is there kind of of like a love bomb thing? And then the attention and, and the praise was, was all sucked away?

Thicc: The attention. So like we hardly talked for like a month immediately after. 

Hecate: Wow. Okay. 

Thicc: We got together. After that, all of a sudden there was this big blow up with him and his wife. Like a month later he messages me. He is like, Hey, can I tell my wife about your medical condition on why you can't have kids?

And I was like, yeah, I don't care. Because, you know, if, if she's worried about that, go ahead and tell her. Like, I've been very open [00:38:00] about my infertility, how I went through IVF, like I have Fibroids. Like I, I had been very open, so I was like, yeah, go ahead and tell her. He was like, she's mad that I, I even have to call and ask.

And I'm like, why? What is going on? He was like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know why she's on this all of a sudden. So I'm like, that's weird. I go visit, visit goes great. I come back, couple more months go by. I find out that he has been talking to another streamer and started a relationship with them about six months into us.

This is about nine months after, from the entire beginning. And I find out by going to her stream, and she's talking about this great guy that she 

Hecate: Geez 

Thicc: [00:39:00] is talking to now, and I just messaged and I was like, do I know this person? And she was like, yes. And she goes, but I, I'm gonna shut up now. And I immediately knew.

The reason why I knew is because I had told this man that I wasn't sure if I was bisexual or not. Uh, pansexual. And I, I knew, but I wasn't just quite ready to admit it to anybody. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

There wasn't any space for that in, in the cult, right? 

Thicc: There's no. Absolutely not. 

Hecate: So that would've been like a huge thing to acknowledge about yourself.

Thicc: Right. He was like, well, we can have a girlfriend together. This was early in us talking about what our relationship would look like, and I said, maybe in the future, but I can't even process that right now because [00:40:00] I was in a situation where I was barely making enough to cover rent. I had two roommates who did not talk to each other.

One was super high controlling. I was on eggshells all of the time. 

Hecate: And at that point, were you still living with the ex controlling partner? And So wait, okay, so I'm just like, I'm, I'm wrapping my head around this. So like, you're coming to terms with, with being pansexual, which there was no space for in the cult.

You're like just being introduced to the concept of like a poly relationship, which is new as well. And also like flies in the face of, of what was taught in the cult. So huge, like emotional, like identity, like relationship and sexuality and, and everything still be controlled. And then this, and then this guy is like, weaponizing your closeted status and the confusion and the control.

Okay. [00:41:00] Go, go. 

Thicc: This is before I knew I was in a cult though. This is before I knew I was in a cult. 

Hecate: Oh, okay, okay, okay. 

Thicc: So I had left, but I didn't know it was in a cult yet. 

Hecate: Okay. But you were, you had acknowledged that

Thicc: I was still trying to, 

Hecate: you were pushing against the control and you acknowledged that there was like a controlling aspect. 

Thicc: Right.

Hecate: Hadn't said the word cult or acknowledged that. Okay. 

Thicc: Right. 

Hecate: Thank you. Thank you. Right. I'm like, I'm trying to keep the timeline and like, 

Thicc: yes, 

Hecate: keep up. Okay. This is intense. 

Thicc: It's a lot. 

Hecate: Yes. 

Thicc: So, so the reason why I knew it was him is because I had told him, this girl I kind of like, and this girl makes me nervous because she had been on the podcast with us a couple of times and she flirted with me and it just gave me 

Hecate: Gay panic! 

Thicc: butterflies.

Yes. Yes. So, so I had told him that and we were both [00:42:00] like big flirts, but she, like, I could flirt with her, if she flirted with me back I couldn't say anything because I was just too flustered. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: And he was saying, oh, we should have a flirt off. And I was like, eh, eh. But I knew that he targeted her because he knew I liked her.

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: She was also a poet. He targeted her and it 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: I was so hurt. I was so hurt because at that point, like we were both very upset with him. But when 

Hecate: you and the, and the girl? 

Thicc: Mm-hmm. 

Hecate: Okay. 

Thicc: We were both very, very, because he wasn't being honest.

I went to visit him after I found out about the girl, I had already had a plan, a trip planned, and the visit went bad. It was just bad. I wasn't happy to be there. I [00:43:00] cried. He got sick. It was just a bad visit. He wanted to know how do we move on, um, together after, this whole situation with this girl?

And I was like, I wanna talk to your wife first. Because when his wife found out about the girl, she wanted to then have a conversation with me. She was now open to having a conversation. So her and I exchanged numbers. 

Hecate: Okay. 

Thicc: And I set up an appointment to talk to her, it was three days after I got back from seeing him. The closer it got to me talking to her, the angrier he got, "I don't understand why you need to talk to her. I just wanna know why." And I'm like, because I just wanna have a conversation with her. Why is this making you angry?

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: You said you wanted us to be a family and get on. I'm gonna see if we can get on the same page. 

Hecate: Someone who claims to be at Poly getting angry about communication is... 

Thicc: Right. So I'm talking [00:44:00] to his wife and I'm talking to her about the girl and everything that happened.

And I was very angry, like very emotional. I had had a miscarriage a week after I found out that he was cheating with the girl that I liked. So it was a lot. And I was still very hormonal when, um, all of this went down. And so I was talking to, his wife was really emotional, and I, she was like, I don't even wanna talk about this.

Like, I don't care what you do. Um, this is your decision. I don't want to be involved in whatever y'all, like, she was not interested in getting on the same page. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: And I asked her, I said, I have a question. How did you find out about me? And she said, I was told that someone approached him and said that they liked him and now y'all are in a [00:45:00] relationship.

That's not how it happened. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: I said, he approached me. I said, I spent three months telling him I didn't want to do anything that you weren't on board with. He told me you knew and were cool. She was like, no. So that big argument that they had was when she found out, 

Hecate: okay, 

Thicc: almost, five months. 

Hecate: Okay. 

Thicc: And I didn't find out until January of the next year that that's when she found out. 

Hecate: A subject that we're both pretty passionate about

making clear to everybody, coercion and deception is not consent. And so 

Thicc: it is not. 

Hecate: Literally if you lie from the get go, that's not informed consent. You didn't actually get to consent to any part of the relationship or anything that happened in it. 

Thicc: I didn't. And I told him in the beginning that lying to me was a deal breaker [00:46:00] because you take my choice away.

You take my choice away. And he did that, just that. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: He did just that and was very adamant that I could not be back in a relationship with my ex if he was going to. He did not want my ex to be in a relationship he didn't know about, but he put me in a relationship that I didn't know about.

Hecate: Mm-hmm.

Well said. 

Thicc: I was so emotional when I found out about it, I blew up. I went and got to the hospital, get my miscarriage taken care of, and everything just blew up. I had confided in one of my friends and that friend just blew everything up, picked him out of the Discord. Multiple people left his Discord, and I didn't know what had happened.

They blamed me for it. Um, it just became a very [00:47:00] ugly situation. So I deleted everything. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: Deleted my Twitch channel, deleted my Twitter, deleted Instagram, I deleted. 

Hecate: Wow. 

Thicc: Everything. 

Hecate: Okay. 

Thicc: I was just so, I was hurt at losing my friend. We were all in a poetry streaming stream team together that dissolved.

I had lost everything that was important to me, so I just clung back to my controlling ex. At that time I was unconsolable, boo-hoo, crying in the closet when it happened. But I've always known when it comes to a breakup, in six months, I'm not gonna feel like this. In six months I will be fine.

So I always count six months whenever there's a breakup. I just, we're almost at six months, 

Hecate: What is it about six months? What is [00:48:00] it, is that something that you just noticed in yourself? 

Thicc: It's something that I've noticed in myself,

'cause I know as things time goes on 

Hecate: mm-hmm. 

Thicc: You get over things, but usually by six months you are all cried out. 

Hecate: Hmm. 

Thicc: You're all cried out. And it does, it still hurts, but it's not devastating. 

And in six months you've moved on to other things that are taking more of your attention.

So you're not thinking about it as much as you were when it first happened. So I always just tell myself, this is only temporary. I got six months. 

This is not gonna hurt. And in six months I wasn't crying about it anymore. But I was still very paranoid, still very, very paranoid about what was being said about me.

And that goes back to the cult, because if anybody said or found out any of the stuff that I did, or you were looked unfavorably, you were then [00:49:00] shunned. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: So I have always been withdrawn myself. 

Hecate: And there's also the kind of connection where in the cult, like taking away your ability to,

Thicc: Speak 

Hecate: that speaking aspect.

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: Removing the voice and then to take steps to like delete profiles, delete Twitch, which is an aspect of voice to be the one to have to like silence self. That's like re-traumatizing in multiple levels.

With, with just the enmeshment, with your abuser in, in your Twitch space and in with poetry as well, how did you start to heal, and how did you, like, reclaim those things in your life? 

Thicc: Luckily I was already in therapy when all this stuff happened. 

Hecate: Did you have any hangups about seeking therapy and actually finding that for yourself? What made you do that? 

Thicc: I had [00:50:00] experienced bits and pieces of therapy when I was 17, actually

16. 16. Because that was my first suicide attempt. The police. Not only was my father well known in the cult, he was very well known and respected in the city that we grew up in. So I couldn't get away with anything in the city that I lived in. I always had to leave. So when I attempted suicide, there was a counselor from the police department that came and would talk to me, and she was very nice.

She was a black lady, but I didn't trust her because I knew she was going to go back and tell my father. 

I sought therapy after that before, and at that time it was very, I had been kicked out of the religion and so I had just wanted to talk to somebody about the pain that I was going through [00:51:00] being kicked out, and that it was really hard for me to go back and a therapist said, "You know, you can always change religions".

And that was not okay for me because my family was in that religion and my whole purpose was getting back to my family and friends. So you just dismissing my entire issue. 

So I, I always had bad luck with therapists, but what made me go. The controlling person in my life was like, you need therapy.

You need therapy. I was like, no, I don't. 

Hecate: Was he in therapy? 

Thicc: My friends, he, so he was. 

Hecate: Okay. 

Thicc: He was in therapy and he loved his therapist.

 He told me that I need the needed therapy and my friends kept saying, there is something wrong with you.

There is something wrong with you. You [00:52:00] need therapy. And so at the time that I found the therapist, I was trying to make the controlling ex happy. And so I have this amazing sheet of so many mental health references that I came across in my early days of streaming that another streamer, um, keeps up and updated.

And on that list there was a link to TherapyforBlackGirls.com and I am very hood. I have been saying the N word since I was two. I need people to speak to me like that. And so I went there and I looked for a specialist 'cause I figured I was like, I think I have some PTSD because I always withdraw when everything is, I, I turtle up when something goes bad.

Sometimes I become nonverbal [00:53:00] too. I looked for specialists that specialized in PTSD, religious trauma,

and I found an amazing person that has been with me through this entire journey of discovering I was in a cult, of the assault, of the miscarriage, all of that, because the miscarriage was a thing in itself too. I didn't even think I could get pregnant.

I've been sad thinking that I was broken.

Now I know I'm not broken, but I didn't want kids, so I was happy I didn't have the baby. So it was, it was a lot. 

Hecate: That's so heavy. Yeah. That's a lot to carry and process. 

Thicc: At the same time. It was a lot. So like right after the breakup is when I found out that I was in the cult, like I'm trying to heal from that four months in, and then I find out I'm in a cult.

It was just so much. And then I went to TwitchCon [00:54:00] and I said, put Twitch in the summoning circle because Twitch has been a huge part of my healing journey, a huge part. If I didn't have those friends telling me that I was crazy, I probably would, would've never gone to therapy.

I met the controlling ex through Twitch. I met the person that assaulted me through Twitch. But there's been more good from Twitch for me. It has given me a voice. It has given me confidence. It allowed me to be the person that younger me always wanted to be, let my full personality out.

It's helped me with my identity, and claiming all of my identities. It's been such a huge growth. I don't know where I would [00:55:00] be if it wasn't for Twitch.

When I deleted everything, my therapist told me, you need to go back and stream because streaming is part of your mental health. That's part of your self-care. So that's why I came back is because she told me I had to. 

Hecate: I'm so glad she recognized the importance of it. So before I had asked about how you reclaimed streaming, and creativity, and poetry after the abuse and after that bad relationship. How did you make those things yours again and make them safe and reclaim them for yourself?

Thicc: Baby steps. 

Hecate: Hmm. 

Thicc: Baby steps. I was very embarrassed when I came back to streaming because there was a huge presence and then the presence was gone. And I was embarrassed because a lot of my content [00:56:00] was about relationships. And here I had just been assaulted by the person that I was promoting as a good person and agreeing with, and there was film of it.

It was so embarrassing. I didn't wanna talk about it. When I popped back up, there was a lot of people that I met from his community. I became so paranoid if anyone from his community showed up in a chat that I was in, I had to go, I had to tell streamers, Hey, this person, I don't know if they're here, uh, to spy on me for that person because that person was a stalker.

They're probably still watching me now, but I'm at a point where I don't care. I don't care 'cause they don't have access to me and they can't have access to me. But at that time I was very paranoid. And so, like I said, there was just one [00:57:00] place that I felt safe and then I would stream once a week.

And first I started streaming with the person that was my best friend at the time to help me get through being a streamer again. And then I started streaming on my own.

But yeah, I still really couldn't be a good streamer 'cause I was still living in the house with the ex who did not want me to have a streaming career. And the only reason why me streaming wasn't becoming a big issue was because my therapist said. But he was like, you can't join any clubs. You can't join any more stream teams.

You can't do anything. Just stream. This is not to make money. This is just a hobby like you said. And I went to Twitch Con and joined the Women's Guild and the Black Guild and the Latin Guild. And when I got my acceptance for that I was so [00:58:00] happy. Yeah. I cried. I cried and he got pissed off. He was like, you told me you were never joining any of that stuff again.

You can't keep promises. I'm done. And I was like, fine. 'cause I'm tired. I'm tired. 

Hecate: And you deserve community. 

Thicc: I was so tired. I was Oh yeah. He didn't like any of my friends. And my friends at the time were the most loving, supporting, sweetest people. He didn't like any of my friends, didn't really want me to be around 'em.

It was very isolating. 

Hecate: Was that the point when you like managed to exit? How did, how did you get away from this guy? 

Thicc: When I joined the Guilds, he was so upset. It was very hard for him to ever hear that I was breaking up with him.

He it like. He didn't hear it. [00:59:00] And then he would then break up with me and I'd be like, okay, whatever, whatever, whatever makes you feel better, I don't care. But it was, it was the Guilds that was the ending point of me being accepted into all three Guilds. He was done. He was also mad because I went to TwitchCon and while I went to TwitchCon, I was supposed to get the car fixed, but I used the money to go to TwitchCon anyways, and he was in school.

And when I came back from TwitchCon, I had COVID and I gave him COVID and it made him fall behind in school and he couldn't recover. 

Hecate: Wow. 

Thicc: And it was just very, like, I fell behind in school too. Like, it was, it was just a thing, like I couldn't control it, but he was very over it. And I had been over it because he, we were arguing one day and I was just like, I can't do this anymore.

Let's just be cool until the end of the [01:00:00] lease. But I can't, I'm, I'm done, I'm done with this. He didn't understand that that was me breaking up. Um, he broke up with me maybe a couple days later and I was like, okay, fine, whatever. But I ended up having to end the lease because, um, I woke him up about something that was bothering me and he lunged at me.

And I, that's when I was like, it's time to go. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: Because 

Hecate: I'm so glad that you recognized 

Thicc: No. 

Hecate: That for the massive like 

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: Red flag that it was and got yourself safe. 

Thicc: Yeah. I, it was time to go, so we ended the lease early. 

Hecate: Good. 

Thicc: Um, but yeah, with the poetry, that was the hardest. That was the hardest because I bounced everything off of the person that assaulted me and the leader of the stream team.

[01:01:00] The leader of the stream team was so hurt that they disappeared and they weren't returning my calls. So I couldn't bounce anything that I wrote off of them. I couldn't do it. Like, and then anytime I started to write it was just very heartbreaking. And I wrote some things and I didn't like 'em.

So I just stopped writing. I stopped writing for

about a year and some change. Yeah. And then I met somebody that made me smile and I wrote something about that. And then I just, my creativity kicked back in. I just needed one spark and then I was able to write poetry again and not think and associate it. Like I still associate it with that time because that's where I became a poet.

I was not a poet prior to [01:02:00] that. Prior to being involved in that creative, poetry team, I wasn't a poet. But I remember all of the fun that I had and I just don't, he is a non-factor to me . It, it's just a story in my head that something that happened.

It is what it is. I never understood what my friend would say when she would say, water your garden, I never understood really what she meant until I had come out of this. And it was because out of the mud, beautiful things can grow if you water your garden. And that's what I did.

I focused on me. I, I lost a [01:03:00] lot of my friends, so I didn't have a choice but to focus on me. After that, I was living alone with no friends, really. Like I had acquaintances. I had a couple of people that did check on me and, and were there. But I didn't have I didn't have a best friend. I didn't have people to come over and just hang out.

I was by myself. And so I didn't have a choice but to focus on me. And it was at that point that I thought, why do I feel so violated by what happened to me almost two years later? Why do I feel violated? And I did some Googling and I was like, I was assaulted. I called the sexual hotline. I explained what happened.

They were like, yes, that's called rape by deception. That is definitely assault. [01:04:00] And then they told me something very, very heartbreaking. There's a law in the books in the city that it happened to me. Rape by deception is punishable by 15 years in prison. And I think a hundred thousand dollar fine. But no prosecutor will take the case because I said yes, no matter what the evidence is.

Hecate: Yeah. 

Thicc: Because I said, yes, they won't take the case, but there's a law. 

Hecate: Yeah. It's so frustrating. This lack of understanding for, for any "Yes" that happens like in a place where that informed consent. If someone's lying to you. 

Thicc: That's not consent. 

Hecate: It negates the "Yes".

I saw someone phrase it in this really beautiful way, which [01:05:00] was, uh, if fear is in the room, there is no consent.

And it's the same with deception. It's the same with coercion. If someone's pressuring you, if someone's lying to you and you don't even understand like, you know what's happening fully. 

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: That's not consent. That's not what it is. And we definitely need the justice system to get their shit together, 

Thicc: Step in 

Hecate: and, uh, yeah.

And actually, stop upholding these systems of violence and actually 

Thicc: Right. 

Hecate: Acknowledge that and being willing to take those cases is a huge part of it. 

Thicc: And, yeah. Yeah. So once I got that confirmation, it was funny because right before that, um, a different ex from a long, long time ago sent me a message and was like, I miss you.

And I said, the person that you miss is dead. And I didn't mean it [01:06:00] as don't talk to me. I meant it as that version of me doesn't exist anymore. It doesn't exist. So you are missing somebody that doesn't exist. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. They're gone. 

Thicc: You don't know me. And when they got upset about that, it just clicked in my head because the person that assaulted me was following me on Twitter.

When everything went down, they blocked me and I never thought to go block them back. I just went on with my life and tried to heal. But then they started showing up on my timeline and I didn't, I didn't wanna poke the bear. I did not, because I knew how they were, they were very upset when people would

push them in a way or block them, uh, from being seen from, from them being able to see they were, they would get [01:07:00] very upset about that. And I just didn't wanna poke the bear. But after getting that message from my old ex, I was like, why does he have access to me? And I blocked him. The very next day, my Twitch channel was suspended and reported for, um, an inappropriate name that my name went against terms and conditions.

And I was like, 

Hecate: All of a sudden. 

Thicc: I was accepted 

Hecate: mm-hmm. 

Thicc: Into all of the Guilds with this name. And so I made a big thing about it on, on Twitter. I was like, can somebody do something? Because I can't log in. And I wasn't gonna stream. I was actually just logging in to support people. He wasn't saying anything, but his wife was kiking about me being suspended and she knew why.

And like it was just a show for her. And I had forgot that I did not block her. I had blocked [01:08:00] him. I had blocked the girl that I had the crush on, but I forgot to block her. It made no, like, why are you angry because I blocked your husband from stalking me?

I knew that at that point they had gotten angry because I blocked them and I now know that I was assaulted. Oh, now I'm talking, I'm not embarrassed no more. I'm talking. So I had a stream. I had a whole stream, and I told the story, like I told it here. I didn't mention any names, but I did say the person that I used to stream and have a podcast with, um, and they knew, and that's where the sexual assault panel came from, that we did is because I got messages from people not knowing, um, that that was assault or either saying that it happened to them too.

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: And so I, I was like, we have to do something. [01:09:00] Yeah. 

Hecate: I'm so glad that you did the panel and that you're healing, that you're speaking up and uh, and that you're helping to raise awareness about this. When I did an episode about, coercion isn't consent, that ended up being one of my most popular episodes.

And I think it's because this is so prevalent and so painful. And it's so difficult because it, it, it does traumatize you and you feel violated, and then you don't understand why you feel so violated. 

Thicc: Mm-hmm. 

Hecate: Um, because our, you know, the rape culture that we live in, um, just doesn't acknowledge it.

It doesn't teach, you know, our, our culture doesn't 

Thicc: It's normal. 

Hecate: Yes. It's normalized. It's not, 

Thicc: They normalize it. 

Hecate: Acknowledged. yeah. It's so painful, but it's so important to actually realize that if there was coercion, deception involved in what happened to you, that that wasn't consent and it's painful and scary and it can [01:10:00] happen years down the line, decades even to realize that you've been assaulted.

And I, you know, I, I think we're both extremely passionate about, um, 

Thicc: yeah, 

Hecate: about, you know, as difficult as it is to have that realization, it's so important for us as a culture to collectively understand what is and is not actual consent. And then it's also, as painful as it is,

it's so important for people to understand what happened to them, so that they can have the opportunity to heal. 

Thicc: Because if you don't know. And you keep everything bottled up and you don't speak, it just does more damage. 

It just does. And I needed to get it out.

I knew in order for me to be okay, I needed to get it all out. I needed to cry it out. I needed to talk it out. I needed to shout it out to the world. And then I need to figure out how to make sure not to let anybody else have this experience. 

Hecate: You mentioned at one [01:11:00] point, how alone you were and you were talking about, the friends leaving. And so I wanted to address, uh, something that we talked about in the tech call, which is the hard lesson. That lack of boundaries can go both ways and it can 

Thicc: Yes, 

Hecate: uh, hurt you and it can also mean that you can hurt others.

The hard lesson of learning that friends aren't therapists, 

Thicc: Right. 

Hecate: And so I wanted to talk about that for a minute. 

Thicc: So I learned about boundaries on Twitch. I had no idea about boundaries. My poor, poor friends. Because I was so violated and so hurt. I was talking about it all the time.

And any time there was any development, because I have PTSD and I was hyperfocused on whether or not they were trying to contact me. Anytime anything came up, I was talking about it again. I was talking about it again. I was talking about it again. I [01:12:00] didn't take into consideration like one of my friends was victimized too, by this person, by lying and by trying to befriend them.

And they were very hurt. So it was like I was picking their scab off every time they tried to heal, even though like if I wanna pick at my own scab, that's my issue. But I was picking at somebody else's scab and not aware that I was, and 

Hecate: I love that metaphor. 

Thicc: Multiple, multiple, times. And like the last time that I did it, I knew I shouldn't have said anything.

And I changed my mind and they were like, no, what? And I told them anyways. And it was at that point I think that they had their breaking point and they were just like, I need a break from our friendship. And [01:13:00] that I don't even know if I'm still very over that yet. Because friendships are just as hard as when they end.

Yeah. If not harder. 

Hecate: Yeah. 

Thicc: Than breakups sometimes. Um, and it was not just the pain of losing my friend, but the also the pain of knowing that being around me was hurting them. And you never wanna hurt anybody. That just points more anger at the person that assaulted me. I had friends, I had a good loving, tight-knit group of people.

It fell apart for other reasons that weren't just that, but like that was a big factor of why I lost a lot of my friends. And it just, and not only that, it's made me very reserved in making new friends. [01:14:00] Like I don't. I have people that I really like being around and that, like, talking to me, but like, I don't talk about anything because I'm, that good

PTSD likes creeping into everything. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: So it, it's, it, that's the new thing that I'm trying to work through is being able to understand that sometimes it's okay to be a little bit vulnerable with your friends, but not use them as therapists. And finding that line is, is the new goal. 

Hecate: I'm still finding that line as well.

And it's been decades since I had kind of like a similar tension, um 

Thicc: Mm-hmm. 

Hecate: It's so painful the first time you get that feedback of, you're too much or this is too much, um, when 

Thicc: Mm-hmm. 

Hecate: your world is ending. And then I think I really swung [01:15:00] in the opposite direction, which is like, okay, like, so, so there wasn't a proper boundary there.

So I'm gonna erect one and it's gonna be a wall and I'm just not going to talk about certain things at all. Um, and 

Thicc: Mm-hmm. 

Hecate: Not just from a place of I wanna protect you, but also like a really hurt, a feeling of like I don't trust you or not to leave, or, oh, I'm too much, you know, or, uh, I'm a burden and you know, just like, all this messy shit.

And I'm still working that out. I'm still figuring out the healthy boundary of friendships and, I'm still making my way back from swinging that opposite direction of, of just sort of like, well, I'm an island. 

Thicc: Right. 

Hecate: Like, cool, that works. 

Thicc: Right.

It's, um, I've got a few friends that have all that are, have been trying to get me to come out and it's just like,

no, 

Hecate: It's hard. It's so hard. Like [01:16:00] creating boundaries when you were raised without them is such a, such a, it's such an ordeal and it takes so many years and so much work. And it's so complicated and, you just keep finding new parts of your life where you're like, oh, that goes back to, oh, okay.

Thicc: It's like, it's like you're raised with no boundaries and then you go all the way immediately to all boundaries. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: Walls, walls, walls, walls, walls, walls, walls. It's like, I don't know if you've ever seen Dr. Who, but there was an episode where one of the girls was dreaming and Dr.

Who, and this person kept opening up like a sliding glass door peeking in and being like, Nope, she's not ready, and closing it. And that's how I feel when I go to like open up to friends. It's like, hmm, nope. You peek in. Yeah. I'm not ready. And you [01:17:00] close the wall. 

Hecate: I think something that I started to learn first with more romantic partnerships was that that person doesn't have to be everything, to me or like fill every role.

Or, you know, like meet every single need. And that that's an unhealthy expectation that honestly is, is set by, in part by the culture. Um, but then it's really easy to fall into that. 

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: Um, and then also just, just understanding that friendships are, you know, just different forms of relationships, 

Thicc: Right.

Hecate: And the same thing is true for them. Like that some friendships where there may be space for, for certain support or sharing and then some relationships where it's like, you're not the person that can handle that or, that I will take this to. You know, different people able to fulfill different roles.

To meet different needs within 

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: all of us. And uh, and trying to figure out like how to identify that. And, uh, and you know, 

Thicc: It's hard 

Hecate: respect it. It is, it's hard. [01:18:00] People are, people are tough. People are. Being a human is a wild ride. 

Thicc: They're fascinating. Yeah. They're, they're fascinating and interesting and very different.

And it's been interesting, an interesting ride for me to go from this cult environment where everybody's happy and quote unquote loving and very communal to a place where everybody distrusts, everybody and everybody is not available for everything. It's, it's very different. It's very different. And do I miss that?

No, I don't. I think I've been very fortunate to experience both and have an example of the [01:19:00] extremes, so that I know where the happy medium is. Watering my garden. 

Hecate: Yeah. It's important.

You had talked in the tech call about forgiving yourself for ignoring or not seeing red flags. And I wanted to ask about, where you find that forgiveness. 

Thicc: So, as I was going through that relationship, my intuition was like, Hmm, something's not right. Something's not right. Something is not right.

And I just couldn't put my finger on it. And so as that intuition just kept getting stronger, I emotionally kept pulling back. And so as far as like romantic feelings, but I still saw this person [01:20:00] as my friend. And so I think that, when this ended, I was very much in a space of you're gonna listen to your intuition more because you could have avoided all of that.

And that's where I was in the space. I was very much in the, you should have known, because your intuition told you that things were not right. You should have known. And then I got to a place where I was like, you know what? No. I didn't listen to my intuition. And yes, I am going to listen to my intuition more.

However, that person had no right to do this to me. That person did not have permission to do this to me, that was not my fault because I was very clear in my communication when I said what were deal breakers [01:21:00] and what I did not want to be involved in, and they put me in that position anyway.

So yes, your intuition was telling you that you needed to walk away, but that's okay. Sometimes we gotta see things for ourselves. Sometimes we learn differently, and I can't be mad at myself for having to learn a lesson in a specific way that made me remember it.

Sometimes you have to touch the stove to understand what hot is. 

Hecate: Mm. 

Thicc: Because if you've never experienced hot. That danger doesn't mean anything. That word means nothing. Sometimes you have to touch it to understand what hot is. And so that's how I look at it. This was just another part of my development as a human.

Hecate: Can I ask if, Ooh, I'm so sorry. Continue. 

Thicc: No, so No, no, no. Go ahead. 

I was just gonna say it sucks, [01:22:00] but it is. 

Hecate: Yeah, 

it does. And it's, it's also just so painful when you out of all like the dysfunction in your past. And I think you and I like share this, this moment where like you still manage to like find that crystallized moment where you communicate in your case deal breakers.

And in my case, like, uh, you're about to assault me. This is a coercive situation. I need you to stop because at this point, uh, any yes you receive is actually a no. And 

Thicc: Right. 

Hecate: And I am so traumatized I won't be able to, like, all I'll all consent is out the window at this point, like, and communicate my own trauma. 

Thicc: Right.

Hecate: Um, but when you're actually able to communicate to them like. Don't take away my choice. Here's how you get to be a good person and they choose to harm you instead. It's fucking sucks. Just fucking sucks. Um, and as you said, it's on them. [01:23:00] Like you had all the information to be a good human being and you chose to be a predator.

Um, 

Thicc: Right. 

Hecate: And at least, at least we have that clarity. 

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: I'm curious if growing up in the high control environment, if there was any aspect of that that taught you to ignore your intuition, that feeling or that gut instinct of like, this is wrong.

Like if that kind of set you up to ignore your own, your own intuition or your feelings? 

Thicc: I think it did. But not because I did it there. It is because after finding out that I was in a cult, well, this happened before that, but I was so Hell bent on experiencing things that I'd never experienced before, that I wanted to experience a poly relationship.

I wanted. In [01:24:00] fact, I am currently married about to be divorced. I haven't seen my husband since 2020. We've been separated. He's got a whole new baby. Like it's, it's, it's not amicable anymore, but we're, we've both moved on. Um, but I wasn't satisfied in that marriage when it came to sex. Um, my first experience with sex was also an assault.

In the cult, they don't talk about sex. Like, my mom never sat down and ex-, like, had a really good talk. Orgasm? What the, what the fuck is that? What the fuck is an orgasm? Like, I didn't know. I didn't know shit. 

Hecate: Yeah. 

Thicc: And so I had never experienced good sex until I was 42. I had my first orgasm [01:25:00] at 42 years old.

I was 43 when I met the person that assaulted me. So I was like, I am trying to find out. I have been missing out and that's why I didn't listen to my in because I was in a mental space where 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: I'm now free to do what I want without control. And so that's what made me ignore it.

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: It was the years of control. 

Hecate: I wanted to ask, how has race, or culture, or racism intersected with either trauma or healing in your life?

Thicc: I think seeing Therapy for Black Girls was huge for me because the previous therapist and she was white and she was like, "just go to a different religion". I had another psychologist that was male and when [01:26:00] he found out that I smoked weed, he proceeded to give me a long lecture.

And he was also, uh, Caucasian. He gave me a long lecture about not knowing what additives have been added to weed and I don't know where it's, how it's grown and all. And I was like, sir, I started smoking at 40. I am a suburban housewife who goes to a dispensary. I'm not buying drugs off the street. But there was that assumption because I was a Black woman.

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: And I definitely don't look my age, so they always assume that I'm some young kid that is just buying drugs off the street. And so it's been very interesting, now having a Black therapist who understands how I grew up, who speaks the language that I speak, who I'm able to be [01:27:00] free and fully myself, and who understands the culture of, um, Black parents and religious Black parents.

And it's been so refreshing. So I say to anyone that is watching, if you are not vibing with your therapist, find another one. Find another one, and another one, and another, it's like medicine. You have to figure out which one works for you. Do not write therapy off just because one therapist and you didn't mesh well because there is a therapist out there that will mesh well with you.

Hecate: Thank you so much for talking about that. And I'm gonna make sure to link that resource in episode notes so that folks who maybe like could be stuck in a really uncomfortable situation with, with a white therapist. 

Thicc: Mm-hmm. 

Hecate: Like, we're gonna make sure that folks can find people that can relate to their life experiences and give them the support that they need.

Thicc: Yeah. 'cause [01:28:00] there's a lot of assault that happens in Black families that people don't talk about. And they don't believe, and then like, there's just very, very, very serious things where moms will sometimes pick their boyfriends over their children's word. And so, um, sometimes you need somebody that understands the environment.

And how systematically everything has affected us. That's one thing. My therapist has a resource for everything. She's got a resource for everything because she understands the system and she understands that, hey, my people may be in these particular situations, so let me make sure I have resources for them.

And if you haven't had those experiences, you may not know how to have those resources on standby. And so definitely get a therapist that [01:29:00] works for you and it understands your culture. 

Hecate: Therapy is such a, it's such a vulnerable space and to expect someone to be vulnerable or feel safe, uh, when they could get hit with a white therapist who hasn't done the work, doesn't realize that they haven't done the work and might have some, you know, unexplored racism that they're bringing into the room and like, and putting on their patient.

That's not safe. It's not healthy, and it's not fair or how anybody's gonna heal. So I'm, I'm really excited to share that resource with folks. 

Thicc: Yeah. But also, not only that, being very specific and targeted in your therapist search. Like I specifically looked for a therapist that knew how to deal with religious trauma and PTSD because I knew that those were my issues.

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: And if you [01:30:00] don't target down, you're gonna end up with a therapist like me that was like, "oh, just change religions". And it was like, it's not that easy. 

Hecate: Like it's a blazer. You can just like shrug. 

Thicc: Right? 

Hecate: Yeah. Okay. 

Thicc: It's not that easy. So be very specific. And I think a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people just open up and like, oh, this is in my network, you know, my insurance network, and you need to do more than that.

You need to search for a therapist that is specific to your needs. My therapist even learned how to do some like light hypnotizing specifically for PTSD patients. 

Hecate: Okay. 

Thicc: So like that has been, oh, I think without that I would have been stuck a little bit longer.

Hecate: Is it like the EMDR? Kind of like the light thing? Oh my God, I'm so, I would love to try that. I've talked to some people and they say it's just absolutely [01:31:00] changed their life. So I like, oh my God, I'm so excited that you found someone who checked, checked all those boxes, and that was like trained and able to do that.

That's wonderful. 

Thicc: Right after her and I started seeing each other, she then enrolled in school for it and she was like, I hadn't told anybody, but you sound like you'd be the perfect person for this. 

Hecate: Oh my gosh. 

Thicc: So I'm going to school for this. And I was like, 

Hecate: Yay!

Oh my God. 

Thicc: And it's life changing. So if you can get EMDR and you have complex PTSD, please, please, please try it because 

Hecate: mm-hmm. 

Thicc: I know I would've been a lot still stuck had it not been for that. 

Hecate: Wow. Yeah. And I know, I know they have, uh, like a different method, like a tapping method, like that's, that's linked.

So like if lights aren't for you, um, then, you know, there are different, different aspects. 

Thicc: Sometimes she does her hand, sometimes there's a dot that I can follow. Um, it, it all depends [01:32:00] upon what's comfortable and what works for you. 

Hecate: Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. That's so cool. Oh, I'm so excited. Okay. Um, wow.

And I love that you talked about seeking out the specialization as well because like, I was in therapy for decades before I learned that, wait, you can like find someone who specialized in X, Y, Z? Like, you can do that as the person seeking out the therapist?

'Cause in, in my experience, like, 'cause I started as a minor and I was always, you know, people were always finding therapists for me, I was always like given to a therapist. 

And it never occurred to me that I could search for someone who specialized in my bullshit. So it's so important.

Thicc: It didn't occur to me until I went to that website Therapy for Black Girls. When I opened it up, there was boxes to check. I was like, oh, I can be specific. Oh, box, box, box, box support. 

Hecate: Oh, [01:33:00] wonderful. 

Thicc: Yeah. It, it, it makes a difference. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: It makes a huge difference 

Hecate: because it's, uh, it's really harmful to be in a room with a person that you've trusted your mental health with, and to open up about a condition that, and then, uh, realize that they have not done the training and that they are going to actively be harmful.

Uh, like I've had that happen with like, Eating Disorder stuff and you know, like, it's just like, oh shit. This is not the room for me. Damn. Okay. 

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: But I wanted to ask, what has been the most challenging and what have you struggled with the most in your healing? 

Thicc: It's the friend thing. 

Hecate: Yeah? 

Thicc: It is the friend thing.

When I was thinking about it, um, it was like, okay, don't cry. Don't cry. Because it's, I had, I had to [01:34:00] sit with that question for a couple of days, because I was very, like, I, I talked to my therapist. I had therapy before this, and I was like, I just realized I'm not, I'm not okay when it comes to friends.

I was like, I'm still very hurt. And I'm not hurt because they, I'm just hurt that they're gone. And even that is a little bit a piece of the person that assaulted me because that was who I thought was my friend. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: My friend died. That's the way that I look at it and I mourn that friend on a regular basis.

My friend died because the person that assaulted me, I don't know. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: So the person that I thought they were passed away.

And that hurts because I [01:35:00] loved that friend. So my heart is broken. My heart is broken from losing all of my friends. And it's just something that I just kind of, kind of brush in the background and I'm like, I am not okay.

But life goes on and everyone doesn't always stay. Sometimes people do, but sometimes people go. I'm still heartbroken. I'm still very heartbroken. And not in a way where I ever want to recreate a friendship. 'cause I don't know that person. I know that the person that I loved is gone and dead and that can't come back.

My other friendships, like, it's hard because seeing them around Twitch is really hard. And I just [01:36:00] have gotten to a place where I just have to keep reminding myself because normally if I see somebody that in like a Twitch chat or something, my normal comfort reaction is to just shut up and not say anything.

And. Again, silence myself. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: And I promised myself that this year I would be undeniable. 

Hecate: Mm. I love that language. 

Thicc: I said, going into 2025, I was going to be undeniable. I was going to be the person that if I asked for something, it was going to be so good that nobody would say no. I just remind myself when I see that and I feel myself shutting down.

No, you made a promise to yourself that you would be undeniable. So who cares what anybody else thinks about you? [01:37:00] Only the people that are supposed to think great about you will be around. And so I've just been me, and I have refused to shrink myself anymore for anybody. And if they don't like it, I don't want everybody to like me.

I don't like everybody. So, you know, I don't, it would be exhausting if everybody liked me. So I'm okay being the villain in people's story because I have helped way more people than people who think I'm the villain and I'm okay. And, and the people that think I'm the villain are delusional. So I'm okay. I'm okay with that.

Hecate: I love that. 

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: I love that. Undeniable. That's beautiful. 

Thicc: Yeah. 

Hecate: I love that you talked about grieving the friends, but I especially love that you touched [01:38:00] on grieving the person that you thought somebody was, that they made you believe they were. 

That's real. It's a good thing for us as survivors to, to talk about that and to give each other permission and to say it's okay to grieve that person.

And that, that's a part of healing. And to be honest about that, it does feel weird. 

Thicc: It's okay to grieve that person.

Very weird. Very weird. You it, but, but you're not grieving the monster that exists. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: You are grieving the person that they made you think was real. 

Hecate: Yeah. The mask you loved. The mask they made you love. 

Thicc: Yeah. And, and it was okay for you to love that mask. It was okay. It is not wrong for you to love that person.

It was [01:39:00] wrong for them to take that love and betray you. 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Thicc: When I get that weird feeling, I constantly just tell myself, you are grieving the person that never existed. You, well, not, never existed because they did exist to me. You were grieving a person that passed away because the moment that the truth came out, that person that I knew died.

That has been the hardest thing that, that and, and the loss of my other friends because of this situation has been the hardest thing. And it just makes me more mad at the monster. 

Hecate: Where have you found strength and support? 

Thicc: In me. In me, I look back. 'cause again, like I'm old, I'm 48. 

I look back at these [01:40:00] last five years or so with all of the things that have been terrible that have happened to me, and I made it through and I made it through, and I tell people all the time that are going down, but I had to really tell myself that like, you really have been making it through your worst days.

You've made it through the worst day you have ever had, and you're here. Like you're stronger than what you think you are. You're more capable than what you think you are. Some of the things that I've accomplished this year, I would've never dreamed of doing two years ago. And it's just been

an ego boost. It's been, like just a warm, loving feeling that I got [01:41:00] me. When I really started to recover from the assault and the miscarriage, it was right before, right when I had found out I had been assaulted. I just visually pictured myself, my younger self. And when I was 17, I always wanted to live in Atlanta, always wanted to live in Atlanta.

It was my biggest dream and I was like, you did that. You accomplished what 17-year-old Thicc wanted really, really bad. And at that point it was just like, I just pictured all of my little persons, 

Hecate: Mm-hmm. 

Thicc: Me at every age that was so unhappy and so sad and so traumatized. And I just kind of gave us all a big hug.

And I was like, I got us now and we're gonna be okay. [01:42:00] And healing your inner child is just so dope. It's just so dope because now, like when I picture me as a kid, I picture me as a little happy kid because the little happy kid knows what's coming. And it's just been really, really great. Feeling good about me.

Yeah, 

Hecate: I'm trying not to cry. 

Thicc: I'm sorry. 

Hecate: No.

Um, 

Thicc: but yeah. 

Hecate: Yeah, yeah. I'm so glad that you've gotten to that point in healing and with all versions of yourself and that you are in just this, this state of like, 

Thicc: Me. 

Hecate: Yeah. Just, yeah. And, and just glowing.

Is there anything that you would like to say to the survivors who are listening? 

Thicc: Your journey is your [01:43:00] own. If your journey does not look like mine, if it does not look like somebody else's, it is okay. If you slide back, it is okay.

I slide back all the time. In fact, I have a poem about sliding back in the healing journey. But it's life, healing is not linear. There are going to be days 10 years from now when you are totally inconsolable about what has happened to you. And then there are going to be days where you are not even going to, it's not even gonna be a thought, but embrace it.

Water your garden, water your garden. Focus on you. Take time to focus on you. Because if you don't, if you don't let it out, if you don't find ways for you to heal, you're never gonna get better. That's all. 

Hecate: Thank you. [01:44:00] Because I'm so passionate about talking about that as well. The healing isn't linear thing.

'cause once you, 

Thicc: It's not, 

Hecate: once you really understand that it, it changes your whole life, it changes your whole healing path. When you really understand that and that, when things get hard again, that you're not failing, you're not, and it's just part of it.

Thicc: Right. 

Hecate: So it's a, it's a windy, it's a windy path and it's 

Thicc: Wibbly wobbly timey whimey. 

Hecate: Thank you. Nice. 

I'm so grateful for you to 

Thicc: thank you, 

Hecate: to be here, to talk with me and to, and to have this conversation with you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I thank you for being you and for being just such a light in the world.

Thicc: Thank you for having me. I really, really, really appreciate you so, so much for all that you do, for being you, um, for seeing me, [01:45:00] um, and for having me in your circle of interviewees.

Thank you so much. 

Hecate: Thank you. 

Thicc: I am so honored. 

Hecate: I'm so excited for, for everyone to hear from you and, uh, and I'm so honored, that you allowed me into the, the panel and the, and just having these conversations with you has been so important and so powerful, and I'm so, I'm so grateful for your light.

Thicc: Thank you.

Thank you so much. 

Hecate: I'm so grateful for all the time that you gave me, um, and all the emotional labor and I hope that you just like have the rest of your day to just like practice self-care and give yourself some love and find some comfort and, uh, and whatever you need to do and just make the rest of the, the day about like watering your garden.

So. 

Thicc: Yes. Yeah, you too. Thank you. Yeah. 

Hecate: Awesome. 

Thicc: All right. 

Hecate: Thank you so much. Bye bye. Yeah.

Thank [01:46:00] you so much for listening. Please check episode notes so you can go hang out with Thicc on Twitch and check out Therapy for Black Girls so you can find a therapist that's right for you. Episode notes is also where you can find all my links, so you can check out my website, follow me on social media, subscribe on YouTube, and catch me live on Twitch.

I want to remind everyone that with the disruption and changes we've been seeing with social media platforms, this is a good time to make sure you're following creators, organizations, educators, artists, and activists on other platforms in case they are forced to move elsewhere, and so you can have access to anything they might be producing that's being censored by social media.

We need to stick together and stay connected. I especially encourage you to support your favorite creators on platforms like Patreon and Substack. If you didn't know, it's free to follow someone on Patreon if you can't afford a [01:47:00] subscription.

Shout out to all the Patrons that made today's episode possible. Thank you Meadow, Emerald, Urja, Kathleen, Felix, Maha, LittleMissGhostie, Sedonka, Bryony, The Gob and

an extra special welcome and shout out to EnderSound who joined at Tier Five, like a baller and got that funding goal met. EnderSound has been a huge supporter since this podcast started with a little GoFundMe in 2019 and has helped with software, tech, and lots of audio and video editing questions along the way.

Thank you for believing in me and thank you for helping me make it happen. Thank you all so much for your support. None of this would be possible without you. Together you are helping cover the cost of production so Finding OK can remain available to survivors around the world without a paywall.

Thank you for helping me [01:48:00] do this work. You have my endless gratitude and appreciation.

I love you guys. 

Today's episode was edited and produced by me, Hecate, at Crossroads Crow Studios. The music is Your Heart Is A Muscle The Size Of Your Fist, used with the permission of Ramshackle Glory.

Thank you again for listening. This has been Finding OK Destroy the Kyriarchy and keep working towards collective liberation. Take care of yourself and take care of each other.

Ramshackle Glory: Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on, and hold on. Hold on for your life, for your life. Your heart is a muscle the size of your [01:49:00] fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on, and hold on. Hold on for your life.